If we got those kind of calls, we could win too
perhaps it is just the loathing I feel for Duke, but it seemed to me that the refs just didnt like making calls against Duke in the NCAA Championship game.
I recall a number of plays where replays showed Duke players making lots of uncalled contact....yet Matt Howard got called for fouls on a number of ticky tack calls. I saw Duke "blocks" where the Duke player practically took the Butler players hand off......a 3 point play by Sigler when he clearly released the ball after his feet landed, having taking two steps with the ball going up....shuffle steps, hacks.....none of it seemed to matter if you had a white uni on.
Boo hiss. Go Butler!
Yeah and Butler still had two shots to win it at the end. They played a hell of a game against Duke and referees.
2 shots that if they were both about 1 inch shorter would have been in. Scheyer's bogus charge on what should have been and-1 ended up being the difference.
And for those saying both teams were playing rough and physical, I agree. But Zoubek was reaching up, and over people and no calls, the moment Matt Howard gets physical he gets a bullshit ticky tack foul. Excuse my language but fuck Duke, and fuck Coach K, and especially fuck those refs.
That was obviously a make up call because a minute before that call zoubek was called for a block when he appeared to be in position for the charge
Agreed. Everybody's going to have confirmation bias about the Hayward charge that shouldn't have been a charge and forget about that blocking foul that shouldn't have been one.
A quick look at the box score shows almost a perfectly even game statistically. Butler was called for 4 more total fouls, but shot two more free throws. One of those additional fouls was an intentional one to stop the clock. On the last play Singler was absolutely decked by Howard, clearly an illegal screen. It was a close game that could have gone either way. You've managed to isolate a couple of moments in your head because of your hatred of Duke. Neg away
Actually, the OP was referring to many plays, quite a few more than the "couple" you accused him of isolating. And someone had to hate Duke because it was painfully obvious that it wasn't going to be the refs.
Except that screen was clean. It was in transition and quite a good one.
... that the pick was clean. Just because he can't withstand impact that he initiated, doesn't make it illegal...
In general though, the game wasn't terribly reffed. Would have liked one or two more calls to go butlers way, but who outside of a small area in NC isn't thinking that.
I only watched the replay once, but it sure looked like a moving screen to me. I thought Howard threw his weight into it. I'm glad they let it go, though.
It might have been a little emphatic but his feet were set on the screen. Reasonable for the refs to ignore it, he didn't slide into Singler or lower the shoulder into him.
I thought he threw his weight into it, but I'm glad it wasn't called. I liked how Singler didn't know if he missed or not until he saw his teammates running to jump on him in celebration.
no I didnt isolate a few moments....my wife had to leave the room because I was so upset about the reffing.....looking at the box score afterwards to see if the calls were correct is so head up your ass, I can only assume you transferred in from MSU.
and I believe Singler was called for travelling (one of the few times the refs didnt swallow their whistle)on the play you refer to , so I have no idea why you would be saying an illegal screen on Howard should have been called.
I thought the refereeing was pretty good.
Matt Howard deserved every foul he was called for. I'm not a Duke or Butler fan at all, so this is coming from an objective viewpoint, but Howard flailed around inside like he was playing lacrosseketball or something. His arms/hands are just WAY too out of control. He wasn't disciplined or self-aware at all.
When you're a 6'8" center, I guess you have to be a little feisty/overaggressive to stand a chance. But that aggression is going to bite you in the ass sometimes. There's a reason that centers in basketball are often 6'10" or taller. When they're that big, they don't have to be overaggressive to block/alter passes and shots. That's the trade-off you make when you put an undersized "big man" out there.
Nothing wrong with the officiating in this game. Both teams got away with a lot of things, which is how it should be in a championship game.
blah blah blah... please stop the "oh Duke gets all the calls" crap. Great, physical game... called fairly even the entire game
My only beef with the reffing was on Singler's miss with 34 seconds to play, and Zoubek just cleared out like a gorilla and elbowed Howard to the floor garner silence from the refs. It was a clear cut clear out elbow and would've been two shots for Howard, resulting in a likely tie or lead for Butler.
You do realize these are the same things people say when Michigan wins anything, right?
Butler played a great game against a great Duke team that was frustratingly more consistent down the stretch. Bummer they lost, but they got in foul trouble early, missed some free throws, and jacked up some stupid, stupid shots. You're not going to win a championship game like that.
Yes, this is what sports fans do. They pick reasons why the team they were cheering for lost, and why the game was flawed. This is what I am doing. The reffing in all likely hood was fair, but in my narrow view point it was bias towards the team I hate most in college hoops, it just seemed like the big calls were going Duke's way. But hey, you gotta give it to Duke and Butler in this game, just wish the result would have been different.
Thank you Bando, the ref hating gets a little painful after a while--especially for a game Michigan didn't play in with no huge screwups.
By the way, there was also a play early in the game when Hayward was setting a "pick" on [I think] Nolan Smith. Smith stood his ground, so Hayward just lowered his "pad level" like a running back and started churning his legs to try to grind Smith out of the way for about three seconds at the top of the key. It was clearly an offensive foul on Hayward, but there was no whistle.
The point? We could go back and forth all day trying to argue what should have been called and what shouldn't have. You might be able to find a bunch of places where they swallowed the whistle in Duke's favor, and I could do the opposite.
Every close game turns into "Well, if the refs had done THIS differently, then it totally wouldn't have turned out like this..."
Refs are part of the game. If you really deserve to win, then you should beat the other team bad enough that the refs can't make a difference in the outcome.
...nothing invested in the game one way or the other, and I thought the officiating was pretty good too. A couple bad calls (the Scheyer charge being one), but probably fewer than the average game, and they went both ways. I actually thought Butler was getting the benefit of the officiating for a while; It looked to me like Scheyer was getting consistently mugged on the perimeter, both on his follow-throughs on shots and when he'd put it on the floor.
And I try to be impartial when Michigan is not playing.
+1 on the Scheyer not getting calls on the perimeter, that was true. Couple times from three he looked was fouled on his follow through.
I thought the refs called a good game, pretty fair the whole night. However, the one thing that stood out to me were the big men setting screens for Duke. I don't think I ever saw one of them set while making the pick. They were always moving/shifting their body while setting the screen. I don't remember that violation ever being called, nor it really benefiting Duke directly. But, it's in the rule book, so it should be called.
They actually whistled I believe Scheyer for a particularly blatant one, but Zoubek was getting away with them all game long.
I was rooting for Butler, but honestly, I thought they got a fair whistle. Officiating seemed pretty even for the most part.
I felt like the game was called pretty equally. The difference was all those missed shots by Butler. In the beginning they weren't making anything, in the end, that's how they finished; two near misses that probably and would have won them the game, respectively.
I feel for Butler. I feel like they outplayed Duke tonight and deserved the win more, but sometimes stuff just doesn't fall your way, and tonight, they came up just short.
Butler was playing defense straight out of MSU's playbook. I don't think either side can complain about the reffing.
All I gotta say is that Singler got away with a lot of pushing off and holding on to other guys. And that Gordon Hayward and-1 that was called a charge would have netted 2 or 3 points, possibly the winning margin...
I know he's a Buckeye but Mark Titus (aka the guy behind Club Trillion) tweeted during the game:
clubtrillion: Both Duke and Butler fans think they're getting screwed by the refs. That can only mean one thing - Ted Valentine is officiating this game.
A friend of mine as soon as he heard the words "Ted Valentine" come out of Nantz's mouth immediately went "ARGH how does he get assigned to a title game?" Dude is awful.
Considering they had to play against the Duke team and the officials they really kept it close. I wish they would have pulled it off, I hate Duke so much.
As much as I detest all things Sparty, a Duke/MSU matchup would have been interesting to have what I see as THE question answered for once and for all:
If MSU plays Duke, which team gets all of the calls?
Both teams benefit from being able to do anything they want on defense while their opponents are called for touch fouls at crucial junctures of games. As much as I have seen refs sodomize Michigan over the years, the OP's original premise is interesting.
I can't imagine what it would be like to see Michigan be the team that gets helped by the refs and wins all of the controversial games. Imagine Michigan getting help against OSU, for example, in their 2006 football game, and making it to the title game. Imagine Michigan getting all of the calls in five close games this season in basketball and making the tournament, followed by Michigan getting bailed out by the refs in the tournament like MSU did and making the Final Four.
Remember the Desmond Howard pass interference no-call against MSU? What if it had been called? How about the phantom holding call ten yards away from Michigan executing a fake punt in Bo's last game? Or the phantom touchdown by Charles White of USC in, I believe, 1976?
I don't know what Michigan has done to piss off whoever controls the officials, but I wish they would be forgiven. It would be nice to live on the "other side of the tracks" for awhile.
For that matter, it would be nice to just get games called down the middle.
Dear Tater,
Reffing is a fucking abortion on both sides at all levels of college. The only bias you're seeing is the proven bias the home college teams tend to get more calls in their favor, specifically momentum calls in key situations when the crowd is out of control.
But, if you want to cite phantom touchdowns, how about Minor's 2008 TD against MSU? What if MSU had lost by that margin?
The refs aren't out to get anyone, they are just truly incompetent.
Eh... Duke's last championship against Arizona was far more one-sided in the reffing. Sure, there were a couple calls I couldn't quite fathom (the late charge call, the no-call late when Zoubek was practically riding the back of a butler player to swat an offensive rebound back out, etc.) but it's pretty much just conformation bias if you think the reffing was clearly one sided.
The thing that strikes me most about Butler's run is that in the last 4 games or so I didn't think they played particularly well on offense yet they were still inches away from being national champions. That team was legit, hopefully they're all back next year (coach included) to make another run.
the officiating was bad on both side. There aren't many fouls being called in the 1st half. Good? Not really because they called more fouls in the 2nd half which is inconsistent from the 1st half. I need to see consistency and I don't see that from the refs. They had a few bad calls including the makeup calls.
With that being said, the fouls are called almost evenly on both side.
The biggest reason Butler lost wasn't the reffing, it was because they didn't shoot well. I don't know what their shooting percentage ended up being, but they missed way too many layups and what should have been easy shots.
I think Butler got away with a lot of physical play too. I watched the game on and off and it seemed like the calls were balanced (good and bad). I don't get the Duke hate unless they play Michigan. Success breeds envy.